Chapter 1
In the middle of chapter one, DL says that “humans can manage without religion but they cannot manage without inner values.” Speaking for yourself, do you have a hard time conceiving of an ethical system without religion? Can one be good without God? If so, how? From what source or place – if not from God – can such ethics and goodness come, as you see it? (Comment!)
Toward the end of chapter one, DL offers what he calls the “two pillars of secular ethics:” 1) our shared humanity and 2) our shared interdependence. If he is right? How might we foster these pillars in our own lives, in our children’s lives, in our schools, communities, and churches? (Comment!)
What do you most want to discuss from Chapter 1? (Comment!)
I agree with his comment on pg. 13 that ethics does not require grounding in religious concepts or faith, but as related in comment from intro, ethics emerges as natural response (innate) to common human condition and humanity. However, he also says on pg.8 that notions of social justice are in no way contrary to the principles espoused by religion itself...close to the heart of faith is the promotion of positive human qualities like kindness, compassion, forgiveness, patience and personal integrity. And, that for many people religion answers the deeper needs of human spirit, and should not be neglected (pg. 18). Some need religion to give them basis for nurturing and living out their inner values. Certainly ethics can exist without religion, and we can be good without God (how do you define good though, Toby? and how does one know they are good?) Some people choose to use religious faith as guideposts along the way.
ReplyDeleteAs far as his comments about secular ethics, he pretty well sums it up on pg. 20, one who cares about the fate of humanity, and wants to do something to safeguard and improve its future...me too!
Interestingly, a sidenote on a comment in his intro, which is relevant here, pg. x, "With the end of the Cold War, the threat of global nuclear destruction has receded..." and scary news of the last few days about how close Israel and Iran are to open military conflict...his comment is already dated, but make his writings even more compelling.
First, a note on page numbers and Barb's point/suggestion: I am reading from a Kindle which doesn't give page numbers. That is why I refer to sections of the book rather than page numbers. But if/when they are available, it makes sense to list them.
ReplyDeleteSince my comment on the last blog entry 1A focused on the first portion of this entry, I'll focus on the second part of what DL does with his two pillars. They are critical, to be sure. As I have grown older and the world has grown smaller, I have become convinced that our shared humanity is at the core of everything. I also think that bringing Eloise into the world deepened and intensified both my sense of common humanity and interdependence. I literally feel tied to mothers and fathers everywhere. I also think that as a liberal, I truly believe that humans everywhere do want and need the same essential things and that we need to talk and think about these specific things more often and more openly in all aspects of our discourse.This is why the environment and our water and air are so crucial to me. We truly share those and are mutually dependent on them. so we'd better work together to protect them.
I do not believe ethics need to be grounded in a religious faith- I think it is just one frame work to use. As far as the two pillars- definitely I agree with this. Shared humanity and interdependence- I think today more folks are aware of this than ever before due to our ability to stay connected with the rest of the world- I think one of the main reasons it is so difficulty for some people to show compassion is that they feel they are more important than the other guy. Many people are taught that you have to make it on your own- no one else is going to look out for you-sad
ReplyDeleteI am having trouble making this work- so I will be brief- I do think people can have an ethical system without religion- mine certainly has been influenced by my upbringing in a Christian home- can people have ethics without religion-I think so. The two pillars I think are right on- that is where our hope is to help make the world a more peaceful place- we need to look for our common ground instead of our differences
ReplyDeleteSure, one can have an ethical system without religion... they're called 'atheists'! :) Many people who do not believe, or know if they do believe, in God still operate under their creator-installed ethical system. They feed the hungry, clothe the poor, strive to care for the environment and do many other 'good' deeds. Some atheists I have known have been 'more gooder' than many Christians I have known. What they don't know is that their innate heart for humanity and planet come from an entity bigger than themselves.
ReplyDeleteTowards the end of Chapter 1, I did click with DL's vision. We absolutely share one humanity, one world, and interdependence at a level we cannot fathom (this sounded like a stalwart Bahai cornerstone). When we live and love with a single human vision, the reward can be enriching and devastating. When my son was born I couldn't believe how wholly he occupied my heart and mind, how his every smile or whimper could change the 'world'. But then I thought about the millions of children who go hungry every night and what their mothers' hearts must be feeling. I thought about the thousands of aids babies born every day in Africa who are put slowly dying into their knowing mother's arms. The heart pain was excruciating for me. One does not have to know God to experience this slice of humanity.
This is why I think DL's first pillar of a shared humanity is right on point. As mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, lovers, friends and co-workers, we all have global counterparts who can share in our joys and sorrows, as we do theirs.
As a member of my community, I admit to failing dismally at doing all that I can to foster these pillars. I know I need to 'walk the walk' and serve those around me with my time, talents, energy and finances. I don't have to go halfway around the globe to make a difference in the world. By feeding a family, donating coats, picking up trash, speaking a kind word, or buying dinner for the person behind me in the fast food lane, I can set in motion a wave of compassion and grace that God can multiply and send forth onto the entire world!
I should probably get off this computer and go DO something, right?!? :)
New thread based on comments above...Seems we're willing to believe in an ethics w/out religion, goodness w/out God. And we seem to endorse DL's 2 pillars. Let's share some concrete ideas for teaching, spreading these pillars, passing them onto our kids and future generations...
ReplyDeleteIn my own life, I need to rid myself as much as possible of labels... does the woman behind me in the new Yukon at McDonalds really need me to buy her dinner? Or should I wait for another time when a 'rattier' car is in my rearview?
ReplyDeleteMy instinct might say to wait, but how am I to know that she didn't lose her job that day? Or maybe she miscarried last week? I need to stop filtering who I see as 'in need' of my love
Great points and thoughts Melanie. We can over analyze and overthink those instant moments and opportunities.
ReplyDeleteonce again as we know kids learn by what they see-so any act of compassion you can share with your child -or friend or stranger just helps to strengthen the goal- compassion certainly breeds compassion-Nancy
ReplyDeleteI also need to stop thinking about the material things I am going to buy with my tax return and instead thing of who I could bless with it.
ReplyDeleteYes, this seems pretty basic, but I had a really stinky year of piecing together 4 part-time jobs to make ends meet. I know what it is to struggle, so I should know better what it is like to receive a blessing. God, please release my death-grip on my checkbook!
People learn little bit by little bit. You can't just tell someone how to act and expect them to do so. So to create a universal ethic there will need to be a large group (critical mass) of people willing to teach, teach, and re-teach children, adults, parents. Has anyone read The Tipping Point? How do we create a Tipping Point where people choose to behave ethically?
ReplyDeleteGood point, Nance- and I think the opposite is true too...each time Ella sees me pass someone in need or NOT reach out or NOT stop to help teaches something too.
ReplyDeleteWelcome Julie - which Julie are you? Last name please...We have two, you know :)
ReplyDeleteMelanie makes a really intriguing point. How do we balance self-protection (not just self interest) with giving? There is a tension there that is important to acknowledge.
ReplyDeletehow do we teach people to act ethically- possibly by not rewarding unethical behavior-Nancy
ReplyDeleteI'm also shamefully aware of how little I share in the community events/work-bees in my small community, whether it be for picking up trash or fundraising for the animal shelter. My children will learn more from what I do than what I say - cliche, but true!
ReplyDeleteNancy, Unfortunately unethical behavior is highly rewarded in our culture. Heard about the head injuries created by football? How many will occur tonight? How much money is made off of those brain injuries? Is that ethical?
ReplyDeleteJulie, If we could really get to a compassionate world we wouldn't have to be concerned about self-protection but....Nancy
ReplyDeleteTHese comment inspire me to act more compassionately, maybe to my own detriment. But tomorrow, I confess, I'll be back to full-time self protection. I am painfully human.
ReplyDeleteAs a former high school teacher, I will say that it is an incredibly difficult time to be a teacher and try to teach this stuff we're talking about b/c so many assume it IS religious instruction in disguise. But I suppose that shouldn't inhibit teachers from teaching any more than it should inhibit the rest of us from doing so. We're in our last couple minutes here at 1B just as an fyi. Final thoughts on this? Melanie, my last couple years have been like yours - part time jobs, struggling to make ends meet, and I've been amazed how that has served to make me more generous rather than less so - that human connectedness things...
ReplyDeleteIn speaking of change in our churches, I think we need to be careful that they do not become too much of a micro-community and neglect the aching world around them.
ReplyDeleteI have seen (and been part of) large churches who have bazillions of programs for their members, but neglect to nurture their outreach and service programs. We must balance our church programs so they aren't all self-serving. We must be spiritually fed, but not forget to feed others as well.
Great work, everyone! Let's migrate to 1C, ok? I'll type an initial thread, but feel free to veto it with your own, guys!
ReplyDeleteIn our agency, when we try to teach respect, people get offended because they assume they ARE behaving respectfully. But we have plenty of evidence to the contrary. So there is some need for self-awareness, a willingness to do what I see in these comments.
ReplyDelete